Re: Witchcraft schooling-Harry potter's way!

Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 06:59:37 GMT
Newsgroups: alt.bible.prophecy,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.religion.christian.baptist,alt.religion.christian.pentecostal,alt.religion.clergy
Size: 7,396 bytes

in article email-address-deleted, Mark and Bev Tindall at
email-address-deleted wrote on 7/13/03 12:42 AM:
> "Paul Rivas" wrote:
>
>>> No wonder modern Christians are addicted to Jesus Jingles, God >> Ads
> and Kristyun Kitsch!!!!!
>>
>> Are you saying that if the content of the song or work of art or
>> literature has to do with God that it is "Jesus Jingles, God Ads and
>> Kristyun Kitsch"?
>
>
> No. Definitely not! The problem with most contemporary efforts at
> "Christian art" found in a Christian bookstore is that it is propaganda and
> not art. the great contemporary Christian artists are not found in your
> Christian bookstore .... U2, Bob Dylan, Frederich Buechner, Tim Winton ....
> and , of courtsde, there is NO Christian film worthy of being seen that is
> completely produced by Christians. Most of the great art on Christianity in
> movie media has been done by nonChristians.
>
Check out the art of Thomas Blackshear (sp) besides Christian themes he also
does Star Trek. How about the 77's, Mortal (no longer existent), P.O.D.,
Rich Mullins, Phil Keaggy, Michael Knott, and Charlie Peacock to name a few.
And I think the Omega Code was an excellent comedy ;)
Actually, there was a movie of the gospel of Matthew made a few years ago
that is pretty good. All the dialogue is from the NIV version of Matthew.
>
>> Donne wrote many wonderful poems about and to God, and it
>> should be noted that his more worldly ones were written before his
>> conversion.
>
> A great Christian poet!
>
>
>> Granted a lot of what passes for art in Christian circles is
>> crap, but the same can be said of the secular arena (Backstreet Boys
>> *shudder*).
>
>
> Granted but one does have a choice of some good art amongst a huge
> collection! In the field of photogrphy my wife and I recently saw Wim
> Wender's exhibition in Sydney. Magnificent! Nothing like it produced by
> contemporary Christians. U2's last cd was a great Christian work of art.
> Technically and lyrically miles ahead of Hillsong and Vinetyard. I have just
> finished reading Dostoevsky's "Notes From The Underground" . Superb!
> Nothing found in a Christian bookstore comes anywhere near any of these
> artists! Instead, some of them try to ban Christian artists like J R R
> Tolkein for his depiction of wizards etc in "The Lord Of The Rings". Too
> busy banning art to read good literature.
>
>
Dostoevsky, great writer. I have not read him in awhile. I've been on a
sci-fi kick. I don't know if you like sci-fi, if you do check out Philip K.
Dick's stuff. He was Presbyterian or something like that. He wrote the stuff
that Blade Runner and The Minority Report is based on. If you like Russian
literature try "The Master and Margarita" (sorry I'm not remembering the
author right now). It is NOT a Christian work, but is a good read and has a
humorous account of the devil trying to rent an apartment in Moscow. And, of
course Tolstoy.
>
>> Ultimately it comes down to what people enjoy.
>
>
> Propaganda is not art. Propaganda is the tool of authoritarian regimes like
> the Nazis ... and fundamentalists.
>
If a toilet can be art propaganda can be art. If canned feces can be art
propaganda can be art.
>
>> The same is true of Christian music. I love to worship. It is a lot easier
>> to do so listening to something by Hillsongs or Vineyard than it is
>> listening to Limp Biscuit.
>
> The lyrics to most Hillsong and Vineyard material is vacuuous and badly
> written. They somehow think that by saying the word "praise" that praise is
> actually happening. It isn't! It is merely chanting the nonsensical Pente
> Mantra. They erroneously think that mentioning "worship" means that worship
> is happening. It isn't! The musixciansd are just having a wank. Brian and
> Bobby Houston's overuse of the word "awesome" makes me puke! Have a look at
> Hillsong's yuppy properity philosophy. There is nothing more unChristian
> around the place! Hillsong have repeatedly been exposed in the Sydney
> press.
>
Try to get a hold of some of Kevin Prosh's stuff -- you may still think it
is crap, but it isn't your typical praise stuff.
> Compare the Jesus Jingles of Hillsong and Vineyard to Van Morrison singing
> "Be Thou My Vision:". Musically it is technically excellent. Lyrically it
> has content that makes sense and is superbly written.
>
Van who? (JK). And Rod Stewart took one of his great worship songs and
turned it into a love song.
>
>> Our God is the God of Donne, and Elliot, and Handel. He inspires
>> and wants to be praised through our art.
>
>
> But ALL Christian artists do not have to write about God!!!!!
I'm not saying they do. Case in point is Charlie Peacock's "Kiss Me Like A
Woman" an excellent Christian song about sex. Sold at Christian bookstores.
> The
> contemporary Christian philosophy is that they MUST otherwise they are not
> "Trew Kristyuuns". Donne, Elliot, Handel, Bach, Rembrandt, Michelangelo,
> Erasmus, Swift, Rabelais etc etc etc also did SECULAR pieces that were still
> considered Christian works of art because they were produced by Christians.
> Contemporay Christians erroneously think that Christian artists only produce
> stuff that mentions God!!!! This is a very poor substandard view of art.
>
I agree that this is a problem. But I do not think the solution is to be
scornful.
> Secondly, most CCM , Hillsong and Vineyard stuff have NO IDEA about praise.
> If I went to my wife and said: "Praise the wife! Glory to the Wife! Bev,
> Bev, Bev! Bless the wife! Halleluwife! " over and over and over again ad
> nauseum ... would I be praising her??? NO!!!!!!! Not in the least!!!! She
> would have me locked up for being insane!!!! Think about how you praise
> your partner and think about how one SHOULD praise God in comparison. Most
> contemporary Christian "Praise & Worship" material treats God like an idiot
> with an I less than 30!!! I refuse to sing such lyrical drivel.
>
>
The Psalms are filled with poems that say things like "I will extol thee, my
God, O king; and I will bless thy name for ever and ever." (Psalm 145:1 KJV
-- an aside I think the KJV version is great for kids to listen to, by the
time I got to high school I was so used to the language that I had no
problem understanding Shakespeare.)
>> Read one of Donne's poems in church or
>> something by Hopkins (One of my favorites is "God's Grandeur").
>
>
> Would modern fundamentalists ever understand anything these Christian
> artists have written??? What chance have they got at understanding
> contemporary post-modernist Christian art???? ... Nil, zilch, zero, nought
> ....
>
>
When I lived in Pasadena my church used to have a "coffee house" we would
get together and read our poetry, play musical instruments and sing, and
show our art work. In my current church we have had several art shows and
have had artists paint to songs (BTW we were going to use U2's "Beautiful
Day" but it wasn't long enough). Maybe you've had a reeaallyy bad experience
in some churches, but I have found that a lot of my Christian friends enjoy
good art and literature and movies. For example, I borrowed the movie
"Dogma" from some friends at my church recently. Our church frequently shows
clips from movies to illustrate sermon points (our pastors LOVE the Lord of
the Rings movies). This is an Assemblies of God church.
>