Re: Wayne Shorter sweeps Jazz Awards

Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 18:18:24 -0600
Newsgroups: rec.music.bluenote
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"Sum1" <email-address-deleted> wrote:
> > Not sure. I never suggested asking fans of this music.
>
> But you did. You suggesting asking jazz fans.
I said, "other jazz fans". This suggests the recursive definition I
mentioned earlier. You ask people who considered themselves jazz fans
*before* the introduction of a new style whether the new style should be
considered part of jazz or not. Usually what happens is, for a few
years, most people say, "absolutely not - that would be sacrilege!".
For most styles that have been added to jazz since the beginning -
swing, bebop, cool jazz, modal jazz, freebop, expressionism, etc - a
consensus has usually developed within ten years or so, however. That
is, there was indeed a time when Charlie Parker was not considered jazz
by a significant number of fans of preb-bebop jazz, but by the time
Parker had been on the scene for a few years, he was accepted (if not
outright loved) by all but a small minority of those same people. So
then the fans of Parker became "jazz fans" by this definition. The same
happened with Ornette, with Trane, etc.
So far, however, smooth jazz has been around for something like 20
years, and I see no evidence of any consensus developing among the
people who were already jazz fans that "smooth jazz" should be
considered part of jazz. So I am not considering folks who are fans of
smooth jazz but have no interest in jazz as a whole to be jazz fans.
This is the usual way that styles are defined. You don't ask fans of a
new genre what genre they'd like to piggy-back on, and expect anyone to
buy into it if those fans of the new genre choose a genre whose fans
hate the new one.
Here's another way of looking at it. I'm not saying anyone who likes
smooth jazz can't also like jazz. But if we are trying to define a jazz
fan for the purpose of expressing an opinion on where Wayne Shorter fits
on an "outness" scale, we should limit the discussion to people with
familiarity with *all* styles of jazz - not just folks familiar
primarily with one style. You might consider yourself to be familiar
with all styles, although you haven't demonstrated this yet - but I'll
count your vote anyhow. That's "1" in favor of saying Wayne Shorter is
way out. Compare that against the number of records he sold, and the
number of votes he got in the latest Down Beat poll. You'll still come
out in the minority.
--------------
Marc Sabatella
email-address-deleted
The Outside Shore
Music, art, & educational materials:
http://www.outsideshore.com/