Re: Johnnie Ray, Rock'n'Roll, and Definitions (long post)

Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 21:32:26 GMT
Newsgroups: rec.music.rock-pop-r+b.1950s
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On 2 Jun 2003 12:13:59 -0700, email-address-deleted (Bruce R. Gilson) wrote:
>Since today I have limited time to go online, I'm posting this without
>reading any of the posts that have accumulated since I was last
>online. Thus, if I have not answered anyone on some point, just wait a
>bit. I'll probably get to it tomorrow or later in the week.
>
>Also, please note that I have not run this post by any of the group
>members cited in it, so if I have in any way misrepresented someone's
>opinion, I apologize.
>
>So much has been said about Scarlotti's supposed "Johnnie Ray is the
>Father of Rock'n'Roll" statement. In fact, thinking about this
>argument, I've come to a major conclusion: the whole argument is a
>matter of definitions.
>First of all, let me say that Scarlotti's convinced me that he never
>really said that Johnnie Ray was the father of R'n'R, and those who
>say he is are taking quotes from out of context. But even his actual
>claim that Johnnie Ray "has the best claim on" the title, if anyone,
>is still raising controversies, and I think this results from
>disagreements on what the two key terms, "Father" and "Rock'n'Roll,"
>actually mean.
>
>First of all, DianeE wants "Father" to mean the one who had the
>_greatest_influence_ on something, while Scarlotti means it to mean
>the _first_person_ to take a step toward that goal. Obviously, these
>can be quite different people, and this is part of the controversy.
>Each one is arguing from different definitions, and they can't agree.
>
>Second, there is a big question as to what constitutes Rock'n'Roll.
>Bill Bugge has made the claim (I hope _this_ is serious, unlike the
>last time I tried to use a quote from a post of his as evidence of
>what he maintains) that early R'n'R was synonymous with r&b. I don't
>think that the term was actually used that way in the '50s, and I want
>to use the term in the sense that it had then, as we are talking in a
>'50s music group.
What do you mean the term wasn't used that way in the 50s? You were
alive then, so why don't you know?
>
>My primary evidence is an article I saw in Cash Box magazine,
>originally published in the period in question, though I was reading
>it about 20 years ago. The point of the article was that R'n'R lyrics
>were not as risque as people were claiming. And the example was given
>of the song, currently on the charts, "Dance with Me, Henry." Now
>since this was given as an example of R'n'R --
How can it be given as an example when it wasn't R 'n' R? If you
believe DWH is rock and roll then I'd bet you believe the following
are true too.
You Ain't Heard Rock 'N' Roll Until You've Heard the Ames Brothers'
"So Will I"on Victor.
Rock 'N' Roll With a Cha-Cha beat (Alan Dale's Rockin' The Cha-Cha on
Coral.
Perry Como in Action on a Great 'Rock-and- Roll Record.
(Ko-Ko-Mo" on Victor).
These ads et al were all run in 1953. The Great Rock and Roll Myth is
that it appears you believe that DWMH etc is rock and roll.
>and this was a song
>that had been significantly altered from the r&b original -- I think
>it is abundantly clear that R'n'R and r&b were _not_ considered
>identical. In fact, the definition of R'n'R that best accords with
>this example is that R'n'R consisted of songs which had their origin
>in r&b, but had been "toned down" for the market of people whose
toned down = recorded as pop so as to appeal to the most people
possible. To call DWMH rock and roll is to believe in the real Great
Rock and Roll Myth.
>tastes had been built on Pop (plus similar types of songs that might
>not have had r&b originals).
>
>Now here is where Johnnie Ray comes in, as far as I am concerned. Ray
>had "pushed the envelope" of Pop singing, so that a lot of his songs
>had moved in the direction that later would evolve to R'n'R. If it
>hadn't been for Johnnie Ray, even the early R'n'R songs would have
>been _so_far_ removed from Pop that they would not have found their
>audience. But after Ray, the distance was smaller.
Really? Then please explain how 60 Minute Man, which pre-dates Ray,
made the Pop charts. How do you explain the other R&B that crossed
over to the Pop Charts. Maybe you can answer the question that
Scarlotti never has. If Ray is all you claim he was then what
contemporary artist did he influence? The best Scarlotti could come up
with was supposedly John Lennon and Bob Dylan, but they were Ray's
contemporaries. Ray was nothing more than a novelty act.
>
>So in that sense R'n'R owes a debt to Johnnie Ray, and that justifies
>Scarlotti's position, at least to a degree.
>
> Bruce
Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall
pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend,
oppose any foe, to assure the survival and success of liberty."
John F. Kennedy