Re: Arabic music for Jews

Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2003 15:28:57 -0600
Newsgroups: rec.music.arabic
Size: 5,502 bytes

Fascinating! I've read that the last native speaker of Egyptian died about
300 years ago. But I'd also heard rumors that the language survived until
much later than that.
On the note of music. If we have an idea of what ancient Greek and Roman
music sounded like - and Coptic music is different from both those and
Arabic music, then, by process of illimination we are left with authentic
Egyptian. Do you suppose anybody knows what ancient Greek and Roman music
sounded like, Maysara?
"meeso" <email-address-deleted> wrote in message
news:email-address-deleted...
> On Sun, 15 Jun 2003 21:06:12 -0600, rhayat wrote:
>
> On Sun, 15 Jun 2003 14:02:15 -0700, DeRayMi wrote:
>
> >> On a related note, supposedly, Coptic liturgical music is closer to
> >> ancient Egyptian music than any other existing form of music is. (I'm
> >> not sure how the experts can be sure of this, but this is what I've
> >> read.
>
> > The Copts preserved the Egyptian language. Presumably they also
> > preserved some Egyptian music. They often go hand in hand.
>
>
> there are no experts !
>
> yes, how weired! but as far as I know, there is a very *little* research
> have been done on the issue of *Egyptian music* & its history.. most of it
> was done by non-Egyptians (Britain & USA). how unfortunate that nearly all
> music scholars (if there were any) in Egypt have take the turn of Turkish
> music & forgot about their national music that only remained alive in a
> form of popular practice (which is to be considered as vulgar &
> inartistic).
>
> a couple of years ago, I started a small research about *history of
> Egyptian music* only by reading everything available written in that
> issue. the project couldn't become bigger because of funding problems;
> (who gives a fuck about Egyptian music in Egypt?).
>
> however, there were some essential conclusions that I foundout about (that
> actually contradicts the statement you read):
>
> along with my interest in linguistics, & as rhayat said, I decided (with
> caution) to take the example of linguistic development in Egypt as a model
> to what happened in music as well. the findings were extraordinary:
>
> there have been always a state of division between what the power (the
> correlation between a government & some religious doctrine) used & what
> the public used except in a very ancient times.
>
> in the field of language, the clerics were the only ones able to *write*
> the ancient Egyptian language, however after so many empires have manged
> to occupy Egypt, the language was to remain the same with the public (pure
> Egyptian at first & then changes goes with vocabulary only - but the
> structure of the language remain the same). on the other side, both the
> clerics & the intellectuals of Egypt were to change entirely to the
> language of their occupiers! this is a very important phenomena. hence,
> it's not the Coptic church that preserved the language, the Egyptian
> church was to consider Greek/Latin language as its formal. as well goes
> with the government; no one could have worked in a governmental
> institution unless speaks & write Latin. laws to be written in a Latin
> language. & so on.. it's the people of Egypt who preserved the Egyptian
> language, the demand for a *public version* of the Bible, their new
> religion, was extremely strong. the Bible was to be translated to Coptic
> (the third phase of the ancient Egyptian language) - a language that
> people could understand & read (unlike the elitist Latin). you see.
>
> now lets see what (could have happened) in music: in Egypt, lots of people
> believe that *Coptic music* is nearer to Egyptian music (exactly as
> rhayat). the term "Coptic music" is used in relation *only* with the
> Coptic *church*. the assumption makes itself more clear now: Christian
> Egyptian music in direct relation with ancient Egyptian music. I was
> immediately skeptic about that - along with my knowledge of the history of
> Egyptian language. I asked a simple question: what if the clerics - as
> they did in language - did in music? what if they borrowed the music of
> their occupiers as they did in language & made it their own? further
> research showed that this argument is probably - to some extent - true.
> however, the differences between liturgical & public music in the Coptic
> period are astonishingly *vast*. it should be evident by now that, the
> relation between the music of the Coptic church & ancient Egyptian music
> is in a real state of questioning. on the other hand, some reasonable
> voices (manly from the field of linguistics) have emphasized that
> attention must be made toward the public production of art, culture &
> language.
>
> I would like to add that the story of the (Christian Latin influence) goes
> in exactly the same way with the (Muslim Arabic influence). however,
> Egyptian intellectuals, whether liturgical or officials, have always took
> the same attitude, the only difference is now, that they left one language
> & religion of some occupier & adopted another, with ease !!
>
> on the other side, there have been always the public art, language,
> literature. & so on. which is IMO, carries the ancient Egyptian flavor in
> it, & however developed & took different shapes, remain Egyptian.
>
> further research must be done in the field of popular folk Egyptian music
> in order to findout whether it has its own roots into Ancient Egyptian
music or
> not
>
> Thanks,
> Maysara
>
>
>
>